📖 Episode Transcript

Cody Ellingham (00:10.337)
Hello, I am Cody Ellingham and this is the Transformation of Value, a place for thinkers and builders, where together we explore freedom, energy and creativity through the lens of Bitcoin.

In this episode I am joined by Chris Moss, co-founder of Zebedee, a company who are building payments infrastructure for games and apps to easily integrate Bitcoin using the Lightning Network. We talk about Chris's background with Bitcoin and video game development, as well as his time living in Japan during the Bitcoin block size war. We also talk about the opportunities for integrating Bitcoin into other services such as Podcasting 2.0, where you can stream Sats to shows that you are listening to.

Now this show is supported by you. My vision is to make the transformation of value into something that we can take with us into the future. If you want to help me grow this show, please consider making a donation either through my website or by tipping directly to the show's Bitcoin wallet. If you have any questions or feedback, I would love to hear from you. Part of what makes this show special is when people reach out. You can always email me at hello at the transformation of value.com and I will get back to you. Otherwise onto the show.

So are we recording now? Just we are live, but it's okay now. Don't worry. Yeah You do one of those things that fuck I feel like well, I'll sneakily start recording to keep it natural and I've ruined that Yeah It's okay, man. Yeah, I just yeah, so you can slip it in yeah Yeah, I know it was great to meet you in Tokyo if it was a of a strange one because we couldn't get like our Calendars to align and it turns out we're both at the same dinner anyway

Yeah, that was fake man. We were distant to me and it was actually a really good dinner I think was that your first time with those guys? No, I know most of them but there was obviously a few visitors over for the conference But yeah, we ate so much meat It was boiled. It was shabu-shabu wasn't it? shabu-shabu. Yeah, it was good but you know, was really good to chat and I did want to catch up with you about what you're working on it and I guess a bit about your story as well because I know we had

Cody Ellingham (02:15.774)
Really good chat just over dinner about what you're working on But really before that how you came to be working in Bitcoin, so thought maybe we could start with that if it's okay, please Chris. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, so like I actually I mean not to go too far back, but I studied computer science at University. Yeah, but the university I studied at I won't name names There's a bit of a scandal where they didn't actually have any computer scientists to teach it So we ended up basically being taught

by people who didn't know programming or computer science. this kind of led to, it was like a big issue where we got like a bunch of students together and trying to sue the university because in the UK, more so than other countries, the students actually pay for their degree. I know in Japan, it's quite common, like the parents pay for it in a way, it's a more common. Anyway, I graduated with like a first class degree in computer science and could not program.

So I was like, I can't get a job, right? So I'm kind of unemployable in a way. So I went to Japan and taught English because I was also studying Japanese as well. And I just went on YouTube and just like, know, search. So at the time iPhone was kind of big and like you hear these stories about people making, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars on an app they just made in their bedroom. So I thought I'd do that. So I went on YouTube and searched how to make an iPhone app and just basically started to learn.

from the internet how to become an app developer. So I basically started this like an indie game. That's kind of the fun thing to make, know, when you're like an indie. Didn't make any money on it because I kind of missed the boat. Like at that time the app store was saturated. So, you know, if you make a game that doesn't matter, have to have like a marketing budget to promote it or get lucky. But I also, I actually moved to Australia from Japan and I got a job at a company which

They basically made apps for anybody who had an idea and enough money in their pocket. There's like a 60 minutes Australia TV show at the time where, again, about a kid who made a load of money building an app. So we had like an influx of like farmers and dads and stuff who have like remodeled their house and got like, know, money. And they have like a brilliant idea. They would say, I've got this great idea. It's a game. It's called

Cody Ellingham (04:39.406)
angry bees or angry bears. So I was basically churning out apps all the time. You know, it's kind of my job, like an app factory. And one guy came in and he wanted us to make a Bitcoin app and I hadn't heard of Bitcoin at all. So you want to make a Bitcoin social media app and a wallet or something like that. So basically that was my first introduction to I hadn't heard about Bitcoin. But you know, just as a program, it just seemed to be very, very interesting.

and very very cool so I learnt a lot about Bitcoin from that I was an indie game developer at the time so I was making a game and I thought oh this Bitcoin stuff it's programmable money why isn't anybody putting it in a game so I decided to put it in my game an iPhone game the obvious thing to do was that you could purchase things in the game with Bitcoin you know Bitcoin's a currency money so I did that sent it to Apple

They rejected it because you're not allowed to purchase things in games through any other mechanism than apples in that purchase So that was like a hard no from them But I just really really wanted to put Bitcoin in it just for the fun of it So they had a rule against getting Bitcoin from players, but they didn't have any rule in their guidelines about giving people Bitcoin. Yeah, would you do that? It's stupid. Anyway, so I put a

mechanism in the game where when you play it, just will just send you bits at the time. We call them not Bitcoin. It just like gives you a thousand bits, hundred bits. And I put a QR code on Reddit, which is like a donation address. So I said, hey, I've made this game. It's on the app store. It's like a really cool way to onboard people into Bitcoin. Any money sent to this QR code will just go to the game and sent to players. And then it kind of really just kicked off. A lot people would just say, this is so cool. It's a

an easy way to get my kids and get my friends in it. So people were sending loads of Bitcoin to that address. was giving it out to players. Even a hacker who hacked an exchange called Bitstamp sent some of the hacked funds to the address. So interesting. of style. Wanted money. But for legal purposes, I did reach out to the exchange and offered to give them the money back. But they were cool with it. It wasn't that much.

Cody Ellingham (07:00.142)
Basically how I just became like a Bitcoin game developer, I suppose. Yeah pulling on that thread then a little bit So it seems like it's quite an interesting story and I imagine this was before lightning was really absolutely. This is like 2013 14. Yeah, so you were just doing this is on chain You had this donation address that was receiving funds very kindly donated by Different kinds of people by the sounds of it and then you were able to give those out to people who were playing your game, right? Yeah, I was spamming the blockchain

Yeah. I'll tell you, Luke, who was at that dinner we had, I think there was a Reddit post about him complaining or mentioning it. I think at one point my game was taking up like 1 % of a block or something like that, which is, for one game. But yeah, I mean, it was a very inefficient way of doing it, but I didn't know any better and there wasn't... So, at the beginning I would just send, you know, one cent, 10 cents straight away as a single transaction. Eventually...

I learned about batching, so I used to batch the transactions. I know we actually got into the issue where as the fees became higher, my games kind of economically didn't make sense. So I actually, eventually, because it was becoming like the higher fees, like $10, right, to send a transaction. So I used to batch them at the end of the month. So you basically play and you'd have a balance. And then once a month, I send it all out.

So yeah, I was really early into lightning because obviously I saw this as a solution. Yeah. So yeah. I mean, I think that that's really awesome. The you were exploring that and it sounds like you've got quite a side to you as well. You've been, you know, trying to build these games and create things. So tell me more about that, like their creativity story and kind of the game side. I remember when I was studying computer science, one of the non-computer science teachers,

They had a good point. They said computer programming is a dark art. It doesn't seem like it's creative because it's it's engineering. I actually think especially with game development, if you are a creative person, probably one of the most creative things you can do is to program games just because you can do everything from like the story to the music, even the laws of physics you can create, right? I mean, and it's basically

Cody Ellingham (09:26.722)
you're able to make stuff. The barrier of entry is so low, all you need is a laptop. Yeah, so I suppose, it's kind of a bit of a trope, suppose, but a lot of computer programmers who maybe aren't the best engineers, let's say, like it takes a certain type of person to be an engineer for like, you know, an airplane or something like that, something that really needs to be rock solid. You can't be too creative with that, right? You kind of basically have standards, you get some, you approach.

computer programs I suppose are called like they call themselves code monkeys or hackers a lot of them end up going into video games because it does air more on the creative side and obviously You know if you know, you might not be doing the best coding standards But the end of the day like, you know, it works. It was however, that does kind of change once you put Bitcoin into the game Yeah, which is one of the reasons like kind of crude segue When you put Bitcoin into a game

you do need to think a lot about security so you can't be the creative like indie game dev and this is actually what a lot of game devs who had bitcoin they couldn't do it basically they put bitcoin into the game and the bitcoin would get completely hacked which is one of the reasons that at the company now we basically try and handle all the complicated bitcoin stuff so the game dev can be creative you know they don't need to think about you know bitcoin security and that kind of thing yeah

Well, I mean, on that note then, so the story of Zebedee and how this all came together. So you were working on the stuff on your own. Yeah, that sounds like and how did Zebedee come about? Well, Zebedee is, I guess, quite a few years later. Zebedee started in 2019 and I was doing these games in Australia. I moved back to Japan as well, actually. So I had a bunch of different games like 2014, 15. So yeah, I was making the game. I had a game called Saratabi, which was like a simple iPhone.

and android game where you basically tap a screen and make a monkey fly for your Japanese listeners. Sarutobasu. Oh yeah, Sarutobasu. Makes a monkey fly. Yeah, yeah. I think it's also the name of a ninja as well. Like Sarutobi Sasuke or something. I've had that game. I also had a geocaching game where people could basically drop Bitcoin for people to find in Japan. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's awesome.

Cody Ellingham (11:49.786)
Yeah, so we brought it back for the Tokyo event. So actually people were using it then but at the time it was quite fun. We did like a big thing with a few exchanges in Japan. We had a fun event where we dropped Bitcoin like all the temples in Japan. It's kind of like a way to promote tourism, right? You go to the temple and you answer a question and then you can unlock the Bitcoin at that.

So yeah, I've been very creative making a bunch of games and then like I said the games stopped working because it was all on chain and a lot of my contemporaries at the time who are also making games they all basically So this was kind of tied in with the the block size war debate, right? You know, most people I suppose on my side and myself in the beginning as well, right? My my game my company isn't working. We need to increase the block size

because it's killing businesses and industry and I do have a lot of sympathy for people who think that especially I had friends who had basically got investment they had a company they had people on the payroll and the business model was basically not working anymore and they were gonna have to go bankrupt or lay people off I was quite lucky because it's just me I you know I didn't I couldn't go bankrupt so but at the time a lot of my contemporaries went they basically would say well there's a new chain which has

zero fees and we should just use that one so a lot of my contemporaries moved over to Ethereum and there a bunch of other chains that no longer exist as well. My view is always if my game, it's not even a popular game, but if that can take up like 1 % of the block size, increasing the block size 10x 100x won't make any difference right if any real game with serious traffic wants to use a blockchain.

It's just gonna fill the block. So we need something like a layer two. We have to do it a smarter way. And that's when I'd heard about the Lightning Network. So at that point, I kind of paused my games, I would say. They still kind of ran, but the UX was horrible and you got paid every month. And actually became like a kind of researcher in Japan. I was working for a company there called, couple of companies.

Cody Ellingham (14:17.07)
one called Indie Square, another one, Nayata. So was working a lot of like layer two research trying to figure that out. And then when the Lightning Network kind of came out, I was kind of first to jump on that with Koji Higashi as well, who was in Tokyo organizing the conference. When the Lightning Network first came out, it was pretty bad. I mean, it did come out saying like,

it's reckless and it's new but it was still very very hard to build an app on it because as a game dev i just wanted an api to use you know i didn't want to but you know in the beginning you basically had to run a lightning node do liquidity management there were no good wallets one of the first issues with light well not an issue i suppose but in games the main use case was to give people bitcoin

and it on chance pretty simple right you just basically sent to their address right but with lightning like we had to have a weird you actually asked people to go to the lightning wallet make sure they have a channel with us and they have to make an invoice for the amount we're gonna pay them they want to go to invoice a copy and paste that into the game then the game would pay it so it's all kind of okra so we worked with some like schemes to kind of like automate that in the background so it can stream payments

The company I was working for in Japan, mean, this company wasn't a lightning company. was just kind of doing research while working with them, but they basically hit the end of their runway and route of money like lot of startups do. So I was working for a few other companies. I was actually making a lightning wallet at the time with Naito Japanese company, which was pretty cool. was like, I mean, it was way ahead of its time, but it was like a full

lightning node and Bitcoin node on your Android phone. It's just pretty fun. But then out of the blue, a player of my first game who played my game like, I guess, six years earlier, five years earlier, he basically just said, hey, I'm actually putting some money together. I'm trying to start a company to do lightning in gaming. Do want to have a call and talk about it?

Cody Ellingham (16:37.602)
And that was Simon Cowell, who's the CEO of Zebedee. So I got on a call with him and yeah, we got along really, really well. I heard about his background. So he had a background in Bitcoin and also in finance, things like this. it was basically, you know, sold to me as like, I'll handle all the boring business side of the company and you can just kind of make games on Lightning again, you know? So we did that and we got another, a third co-founder.

André never sues the CTO. Yeah, we kicked off in 2019 basically with the goal to kind of make it easier for game devs, not just game devs, app devs as well. They can just add Bitcoin and Lightning into their games and not have to be concerned with all the complicated technical side. Also, the legal side as well is a big kind of offering we have like as a game dev. You don't want to know if you're in a gray.

area right you put Bitcoin in your game you know you don't want to accidentally send Bitcoin to somebody you know on a sanctioned country list you know there's a real game company you can't do that right you don't want to you know what the tax implications all these kind of things so it's really the zebedee takes all that off the game dev and they can just add Bitcoin to the game and be creative with it yeah and just going back a step though you mentioned so you're doing a lot of the stuff in Japan and there were others

playing around with gaming and Bitcoin. mean, what happened to a lot of these players? mean, this is around the block size wars as well. Yeah. Well, this is a very interesting time because we were attending the meetups. it's kind of like having, because the Tokyo meetup was organized by Roger Ver. Yeah. Yeah. And Japan was really ahead of its time. But I'd probably, you know, a lot of it was thanks to Roger.

evangelizing Bitcoin, know, he basically would go around and speak to stores in Japan and companies and the government and Bitcoin had really good adoption in Japan when I was there. So I remember like, you know, the loads of restaurants would accept it. Bit camera accepted it. That was kind of a huge news. Camera retailer. Exactly. There were ATMs everywhere. Yeah. A lot of that kind of died and kind of got killed after the coin check hack. That's a separate story.

Cody Ellingham (19:02.062)
So yeah, there's a lot of companies building with it. Like I said, most of them at the time went over to things like Ethereum because at the time the fees were like zero. And I remember saying that, well, they're zero now because it's new. Once it gets popular, they'll go over to a different chain and they're all kind of gone over to Solana now, I suppose.

So yeah, some of it went bankrupt. I think also the way in Japan, the way the regulation worked is that Bitcoin became regulated and you needed a license to kind of work with it, particularly in a custodial way. But there was no such regulation on kind of blockchain and tokens. So a lot of companies could freely work on blockchain and tokens without, I'm not a legal expert, but the way I...

understood it was lot easier to work on those type of things than it was Bitcoin. And as you probably know in Japan, like a Bitcoin doesn't have the best image, I suppose. like a lot of, I don't know, I kind of felt that a lot of people into Bitcoin, particularly in the West, of people came from it from maybe a libertarian philosophical angle. They wanted sound money. But in Japan, they weren't particularly concerned about that. The people I knew, it was more about, this is interesting tech.

So it's very easy that like, this blockchain can do more than Bitcoin. Therefore, from a technical point of view, it's even more interesting. Smart contracts, this type of stuff. Yeah. So I think it was a lot of factors in Japan that kind of led everybody to kind of, you know, do different things. And then obviously, because of the block size wars, the meetup we had kind of, kind of split and there's a lot of politics and things.

Yeah, it's on there as well. It was interesting because that was before I was really involved in Bitcoin too much. Yeah, but I was living in Japan actually at that time. think the potential paths overlapped at some point. But I find these stories of that period in particular quite interesting because it's sort of like there was a bit of a golden era where, know, these all of these shops were accepting it. Yeah, it seemed like it was on the up and up and then.

Cody Ellingham (21:20.07)
I mean, obviously a lot of internal political issues within the Bitcoin world and then culminated in the block size war. And you read the stories about it and everything that happened. It's all very fascinating because there was such a chilling effect on Bitcoin in Japan where it's actually today really, that's not that much acceptance in terms of merchants. And certainly the innovation landscape has been highly regulated. It's actually really hard to do Bitcoin stuff in any kind of commercial capacity.

Whereas I wonder whether maybe back then there was still, it was early enough that regulation hadn't caught up to it potentially. Sure. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely, I mean, everybody has a different viewpoint and story, but when I was working in Bitcoin, I remember we got hit hard by the regulation that kind of came in. yeah. And like not even if the regulation directly affects you, often that it can just mean that it's harder to get investment for a business, right?

So specifically I remember So obviously when I first got to Japan it was like just after mint gox had kind of yeah collapsed and I remember going back there and meeting with old friends Nothing to do with Bitcoin and I said, I'm like a Bitcoin dev now and you're like, are you okay? Your CEO got arrested. I'd explain that he's not the CEO and you know, yeah that kind of so so I mean in the on the TV it said like

Bitcoin CEO arrested right? That's what they said. Yeah Bitcoin CEO so it's like just like you know a scam company and it kind of recovered from that and then a Coin checks. Yeah coin check got got hacked. I think it was an which I think is still like the biggest I was watching a video on YouTube which was a Top 10 biggest bank heist in the world and have like, you know, Jesse James and you know, like all these kind of like, yeah, you know Mafia that kind of stuff

And number one was like the coin check hack in Japan for like sheer dollar value. But I think that specifically, FSA or the FCA, can't remember which one is Japan. The FSA really basically clamped down. And also that basically stopped Japan, again, speaking to friends who worked in the industry and at exchanges, that stopped them jumping on the lightning train, which would solve some of the retail

Cody Ellingham (23:44.512)
issues with fees. remember a friend who worked in exchange. They were going to be like the first exchange to use lightning. You know, they were going to jump on, you know, a big Japanese exchange, but they just couldn't do it with because of the FSA. So it's just like, you know, like it's like the Gulliver's travels in a way. It's like lots of different small ropes holding down, you know, different things, I suppose. Yeah. And then also the community kind of split as well. So I think a lot of it.

was the energy at the meetup. Like Roger was there and everybody was on board and it was like a small kind of militia army trying to spreading Bitcoin. But that split twice. So it split because of Bitcoin to Bitcoin Cash and then it split from Bitcoin Cash to Bitcoin SV. So it kind of like shattered in a way. yeah, it's quite interesting for me sort of wandering around through the kind of the ruins of that story because there's still this Indian restaurant in Roppongi.

that roger veer evangelized and you know, they got the bitcoin cash sticker. They got the bitcoin sticker and the guys in there and he sort of it's a legacy of that era. And I think there's like a there's like a pub. It's like two dogs, two dogs. Yeah, no, that was our kind of the place. Yeah. Seiki I think is a word I learned recently like this the hangout secret place. Yeah, it's like a place. And I mean, it's just kind of weird because yeah, there's there was so much energy.

that kind of just sort of hit a wall and I just wonder, I mean we don't have to make this about that period in time too much, but it's interesting to me that this had that real world effect on the ability to do in-game stuff, know, these kind of high fees and I think it's kind of come out now, I think we all understand the layered approach is the way to go, but maybe at the time, know, people were sort of gung-ho and trying to give it a go.

And suddenly they got faced with this challenge. And I wonder where we're at today with what you've developed with Zebedee and some of your solutions, how you see that layered approach, the role of Lightning, for example, playing into the microtransactions and integration with apps. What does your outlook for that look like? So I have kind of two outlooks. So from a technological point of view, it's definitely the way to go. There are trade-offs.

Cody Ellingham (26:06.486)
Like it's not a silver bullet. Unfortunately, the way the world works, you know, not everybody can have unlimited kind of free energy, right? And not anybody can have unlimited kind of free usage of something. Things hit limits and there are restrictions. Obviously, you know, if I can flick a switch and layer one could scale, that would be a very good use case. Because the way that on chain kind of works is that

You don't have to do any of the compute in a way. Your wallet is really dumb and the compute is kind of done by people's nodes. And that's kind of how services kind of scale, right? You you have a dumb client and it connects to the cloud, right? And the cloud does all, you know, that's kind of how AI works, right? If all the AI models from people's phones, like it would be super expensive, right? You'd have to a giant battery. So all this compute is done on the server and you connect to it.

And I think that's kind what people are thinking with layer one. We'll just kind of follow that model on chain. We'll just kind of scale layer one. We'll have bigger nodes, bigger cloud servers. And that would be the best probably UI, UX. But you can't do that with Bitcoin because obviously it's kind of obvious. We can't just have Bitcoin on like two big data centers. One run by Microsoft, one run by Google, right? It's an argument if we should even have AI.

doing that as well, but that is easiest way to scale. But I think with Bitcoin, you have to kind of take a step back and in a way hurt the initial UI UX and just be a little bit smarter about it because we do need to keep it decentralized. So the way I kind of see it with lightning tech is I think you can kind of have the best of both worlds. But if you want to really be kind of. Decentralize and use Bitcoin in a way how it should be, you can run your own.

Lightning node at home. I've got like a node under my desk there, you know, and it's, you know, I've got channels open, you know, it's not hard for somebody who's kind of tech savvy, but obviously my mother or grandmother is not going to do that, but it is possible. That's what's important. But then you can also have larger kind of Lightning LSPs, Lightning service providers who, you know, do offer that more familiar cloud server kind of

Cody Ellingham (28:29.856)
approach so if you are a game dev and you don't you know it's not really feasible for you to do that and it's not it's not your money is just small amounts in the game it makes sense for you to kind of use these more ui ux friendly albeit a bit more centralized kind of ways of using lightning and that's why can see how lightning offers that as a spectrum

just doing on chain you'd only get one spectrum which is like eventually everybody would have to use this like big cloud server node but with lightning and layer two you can do both so Zephyr D is pretty much with catering to that you know like we're not like a bitcoin wallet or service for the sovereign individual we are a company and we offer services to game devs but I think it's a fair trade-off a lot of our game you know

So we have one of our more popular games building on Zerbity Bitcoin miner I think they just hit a hundred thousand daily active users. So I was having a play on that last night Yeah, it's a toilet game. It's a simple game, but it's a really it on boards people very well Yeah, it was actually really I actually had to like turn it off as I gotta stop doing this because I think I earned about ten sets Yeah from mining and it was funny because I mean, yeah, it's just like this kind of game you

You you play on the train or something but I found a game is the genre. Yeah, what do you call it? Yeah, it's called an idle game an idle game the genre. Okay, so I didn't know that yeah, I mean like I mean, it's not my type of game, you know, but those type of games they are popular. Yeah, and it's just I mean You know, I think it's probably you know more than any other app It's probably on board and most people into Bitcoin, right? And then they can get you know, if you're sending 10 sats to somebody like you don't really need

the most decentralized non-custodial kind of thing. You get somewhere on boarded and then I hope once they get orange-pilled, then it's always possible for them to buy either like an umbrella or something or a home node and learn about it a little bit more. Do you think though, and because I know as well your Zebra D products are also used in the backend of other services that we might be familiar with. So you have this powerful API and SDK package that... Yeah, we're not just games.

Cody Ellingham (30:51.47)
We also do apps like Podcasting 2.0, so we work closely with talent and things like this. Yeah, that's right. And I think, again, that's also quite a powerful tool to enable developers or people working on new business ideas to just come and have this thing they can plug and play to be able to use a Bitcoin Lightning network in a very easy way. So think that that's quite awesome. I guess my question is around the way you work through the regulatory barriers, because we know that the smartphones, in particular the Apple,

ecosystem is quite gated. And so you're very much limited with what you can do. is that like, tell me about that challenge, like coming up against Apple. Yeah. We've had a lot of employees at Zerbidi, like most people in the way have an iPhone. And after working at Zerbidi for like a few months, they've all gone Android just because they didn't realize how bad Apple was. I mean, and this is probably some of the speciality I brought to

Zerbidi, had been obviously from day one I had an issue with Apple. So basically it's kind of hard to say what's what is true or what isn't. So like what is true is that you can't, it's kind of changing now, but let's just put that to one side, you can't pay for anything inside an app like this digital with anything other than the in-app purchase. People will say that's because Apple want less 30 percent, they take it to 30 percent fee which is a ludicrous fee if you think about it. Like what credit card takes 30 percent right?

but Apple takes 30%. I think part of it is also that Apple want to be able to refund a player. Say that you download a game and you buy something, it doesn't work. You just want to say to like Apple, know, I pay a premium for iOS stuff, so I want good customer service and Apple will like refund your transaction. Obviously, if they do Bitcoin, they can't do that right. They can't give that consumer protection. So think part of it is Apple obviously just wanting the 30%.

Part of it is Apple just want to give this very gated, clean UI, UX that they have control over. The frustration with Apple is that we have games that we know, because I've been doing this for years, that Apple do allow you to send the player Bitcoin. There are certain restrictions, like if it's gambling or not, that's a whole different thing, but just giving them, let's say, a Bitcoin tip or a reward is kind of okay.

Cody Ellingham (33:16.066)
But the app review team, when you submit an app to Apple, you get a review of a person in Cappuccino, California will try out the app. And they always misunderstand or they always don't understand their own regulations and they always reject it. So you've got to spend like sometimes months going back and forth until they eventually approve it. So every time you make an update to your app, like you've got a bug or something, you could be stuck in this two, three months kind of like.

Nowhere land where your apps not rejected, but it's just kind of being held up things they they tend to say our stuff like you are mining Bitcoin with the device. We're not doing that sometimes they they see that your game sends Bitcoin and they have They think your games a wallet and they have restrictions under a wallet. So if you make a wallet The wallet has to be published by the wallet developer some weird of so but then if a game

uses zebedee they say that game must be published under zebedee which a game we can't publish all game does actually know so we'd have to replace it that's crazy that's like saying if a game has paypal paypal have to publish publisher you know so there's all this back and forth and it's really a lot of friction it hopefully is changing because there's not just bitcoin companies so epic games who make fortnight have had a long issue with apple and they've been the various

Lawsuits in the EU as well as have some sort of kind of antitrust laws on Apple So they are kind of forcing them to allow you to install apps from other locations other than the app store But Apple are trying to make that UI UX as horrible as possible so there's a lot of friction there and it's kind of sad because a lot of people ask me how can we have like a a viral Bitcoin app yet, you know

You you have like viral apps all the time, like, you know, back in the day, would it be like, you know, Flappy Bird or Angry Birds or Among Us. A lot of it is a gatekeepers for a game to go viral. It really can only go viral on two platforms. One is Apple App Store. The other is a Steem and both are very hostile to Steem ban the kind of all block blockchain games. you can't get Steem out of the question and Apple, they really don't

Cody Ellingham (35:37.046)
like it and i don't think you know i again a bit of a conspiracy theory but it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people kind of stop games going viral on the app store or make it hard let's say having said that bitcoin miner is getting up there you know slowly but surely it's kind of i think it's into the top 10 charts for some games and i think it's doing well

on Google and Android as well. yeah, at Zebedee, we kind of really recommend devs to focus on Android first and then try Apple. But there's a lot of energy and time wasted trying to get your app approved on Apple. It's possible, but just focus on Android if you can. Yeah, that's interesting. And so with Steam, it's not possible to include any kind of Zebedee integration. That may have changed now. But when definitely, there were a few years ago,

They basically just didn't allow any kind of blockchain games. They had it on and steam actually accepted Bitcoin for payments. You could buy stuff. So this got to quite an interesting conversation on how the gaming industry sees Bitcoin and blockchain. So initially it made perfect sense and they were very keen on it because it makes sense. Right. You've got programmable money in games. But I kind of blame the whole ICO kind of phase.

and altcoins, there were so many scams, basically the game industry got burnt by it. So Steam basically took it off, gamers themselves. So gamers were already very angry at gaming companies for the loot box scandal and free to play, right? So before you'd buy a game and you'd pay like 20, 30 bucks for the game and you'd have everything in the game. And then obviously now you buy a game, it's free to play.

but then you've got to spend like 200 bucks to unlock everything. A lot of gamers felt that the game devs were, you know, basically trying to, you know, get every cent out of them. And the game, you know, there were some changes, it still goes on, but the gamers kind of got used to that. And then the game devs started to sell them like NFTs and things like this. And he saw it as another way just to kind of get money out of them. And there were a lot of scams as well. basically, Steam and game devs and game players particularly got a very negative.

Cody Ellingham (37:57.696)
Attitude towards Bitcoin, which is kind of sad. Nothing that also hurts its growth a little bit. Yeah Yeah, and they see Bitcoin the same as crypto, right? So yeah Zebedee actually we won a web3 gaming Award and we went on stage and the first thing we said is we're not a web3 company. Yeah, it's gonna take time to kind of like fix that but I think games like Bitcoin mine I think that this helped because

you download the game and you get money. You haven't bought anything, right? You haven't like bought an NFT and it's gone down or you haven't had to like invest in a DAO or a guild. So I think like my kind of goal is to just kind of simple and honest. You play a game and for the effort you put in, you get Bitcoin back. There's no other strings attached, you know. I hope eventually we'll hear that. And also, you know, as of this morning, it looks like Trump has won the election.

and he's pro Bitcoin. I wonder from an industry point of view, if that's going to, you know, he's going to, if America, for example, like if Trump does what he said he was going to do, which is debatable and has a strategic Bitcoin reserve, you know, with that legitimized Bitcoin even more. So yeah. Yeah. I'm just curious, because you mentioned the steam stuff. So, I mean, I haven't really.

been in this space for a long time, but certainly, you know, Steam and desktop gaming was where it was at back in my day. And you mentioned it's been a couple of years since you looked at it. So really you guys focus on the mobile platforms at the moment? Yeah, I mean, when we first started, we were kind of, we have done some desktop stuff. And when we first started, obviously, you know, personally, as a game dev, you want to make like nice desktop games and like big open worlds, that kind of stuff. But as a startup,

You know, this is kind of true in gaming. It's just a lot quicker to monetize Mobile so we talk so we are we are talking to PC devs as well, but we'll talk to a PC. They're like, hey, yeah, we've got this game We're gonna make it we want to add Bitcoin. We're gonna have like an economy You know, the current roadmap is like three to four years to finish the game, right? Okay, okay, let us know how you get on and the games delayed but with mobile this like

Cody Ellingham (40:19.63)
They can yeah, we'll make this new game in a month or two, right? So it's just a much easier. There's a much bigger market. So I kind of see that mobile is like the level one and then upgrade from there. Yeah. Yeah. We are in talks with like larger triplet, triple A game studios, but that's just going to take a little bit longer. Yeah. And also the bigger the studio, the bigger the risk. I was going to say, mean,

It's like a thing with all things, but they want to see it de-risked with smaller studios first and then once it's de-risked, they'll kind of take it, know, but we are talking to them. You know, but we're not quite there yet. Yeah. Well, I mean, I have a few friends working in the game industry and you're right. I mean, that's it's it's it's kind of like Hollywood. It's probably bigger than Hollywood at this point, I imagine. But, you know, it's very sort of, you know, follow what others are doing, what's going to monetize. It's very professionalized.

Whereas the mobile games you can kind of still wing it and give stuff a go and them in this I mean, yeah Yeah, I'm like famous because especially in Japan. I'm a big fan of Metal Gear. Oh, yeah solid I'm not sure if you are. Yeah, but obviously there was the whole thing where Kojima left. Yeah, and my understanding was it that he made met Metal Gear Solid 5 which was a great game But Konami basically said like this cost us I don't know like hundreds of millions of dollars and we made like I don't know like a 10 %

profit on it but we've made this mobile game for like a million dollars and we made way more than Metal Gear Solid 5 right it's in a way you know as an artist it's not kind of great in a way you know but from a business point of view but I think it's changing though I think mobile actually there's been a mobile hasn't done too well recently the mobile industry is kind of struggling there's been a lot of layoffs a lot of that is due to a lot of the iOS

tracking privacy stuff. They made it harder to tailor ads so the ad revenue went down. A lot of that was there was a kind of a boom during lockdown where everybody was home playing on the game and then that's kind of finished so they've had to like you know readjust. But it kind of seems now from what I understand is indie games are really kind of taking off especially like if you talk to people who are gamers they're playing

Cody Ellingham (42:44.224)
Indie games a lot more than triple A games now and the triple A games are kind of seen that and that's struggling. So I kind of seen like a little bit of a renaissance and by indie games, like I don't mean just like one person, like they obviously the other small teams, but that's, think that's kind of good. And I hope that'll bring more innovation into the space. yeah, I wonder whether, mean, if you looked at the classic examples of, you know, world of warcraft, runescape,

or any of these kind of open world games where trading is involved in. I mean, there's sort of interesting dynamics because they're almost like a miniature version of the real world economy and that's sort of kind of commodity markets emerge and things. And do you see that playing into it? Because I mean, there's a lot of money goes through those games, people trading real money for stuff in game. How do you see that working with what you guys are working on?

We definitely talked to, and I can't name the name, but they're actually an advisor. One of the larger...

economic games and this company they have billions of dollars flow through their game and they're particularly interested in blockchain and Bitcoin because all that money is kind of trapped and they can't convert it to dollars easily and there's a lot of issues there so they're very interested in opening that up. And it's just insane how big these economies are.

real economies and these game companies actually hire economists to come and work for them. It seems quite interesting from an experiment point of view. actually don't think that they want these companies, don't think these games, I don't think they'll use Bitcoin directly. Just because as a game developer, you're very much a dictator and a Keynesian, let's say, right? know, you kind of want the experience to be as fun for the

Cody Ellingham (44:45.106)
for the veteran player and it's fun for somebody who's just started. If you have a completely decentralized game that's based on kind of sound money, I think it stops becoming a game. a game is kind of a of a safe curated play. Maybe there will be a market for these like wild west games where there's no rules, but you know, but I think for games as we know it, they want to control the user experience and they want to adjust and kind of change knobs, you know.

Yeah, when there's too much inflation or so what the inflation but From the talks we're having and you kind of see this in games as well, right? You'll kind of have like two types of currency in the game You'll have like like the copper kind of coins and then you can swap them for gold in the game, right? So I think you kind of have that kind of thing where they'll have like some sort of exchange rate How many of the in game coins can become Bitcoin and they can change that exchange rate? to kind of make the game kind of

economically fun I suppose if that makes sense. That's interesting. Have you heard of Rust by the way? Yeah, yeah, Rust yeah. my buddy James is working on a project with Rust and I don't know what platform that it comes through because I don't think it's Steam is it? is it? Well, we're going back to see like Steam is there's a lot of competitors to Steam. Epic Games have Epic Games Store now. A lot of people trying to know circumvent Steam but I'm not sure off the top of head. A lot of these games they actually have their own.

Launches right as well. So you have to like sign up to their own specific game platform and use that that launcher So yeah, because he's he's built and in rust. He's got a server on there and It's pretty much a Bitcoin world kind of the wild west you just described and I think it's called orange It's so it's called orange, know, you're familiar with that. I know I think I know these guys because we were doing Bitcoin competent like we were doing Bitcoin service with counter-strike CS go

And there was somebody doing it with Rust as well. Yeah. Yeah. But it was interesting. I mean, they don't seem to have any issues with that. I'm not quite sure how it works in terms of the launcher and the kind of framework for it. Well, I think these games, make them moddable and if you and they let you run your own servers. So once you run your own servers, this is what we did at Zerbidi with Counter-Strike. We had Bitcoin Counter-Strike service, which were really fun and

Cody Ellingham (47:09.592)
full all the time. just kind of stopped it because we had to focus on our like we had too many things going on at the same time. Right. So we're not a game studio. We're kind of making tools. But yeah. Yeah. Once you run your own server, you can see like all the events and logs like who shot who who did what. So it's quite easy to kind of add Bitcoin on top of that. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. I I find this place really interesting. And as I said, I'm a bit of an old man now, but back in my day, I mean, Counter-Strike.

Unreal tournament these kinds of things. I mean that that that quick go. Yeah quick three man I mean, you know get get zapped for a headshot I mean, that's that's kind of cool But I guess coming back to this I mean these regulatory barriers because I mean we keep coming up against this and I must say I mean even playing with the Bitcoin miner Game that you mentioned, you know wants to take me over to the zibbidi app and and going through a process there to verify who I am and all of these things and it's like

Man like why why do we have so much of these barriers, you know for lightning? Yes, so well I actually have a tweet that I drew in Japanese and actually wrote and it's quite getting a few likes at the moment and I kind of said that Custodial wallets at the moment. They're meant to be better UI and UX but probably due to regulation will have worse UX and non custodial So Bitcoin mine like we don't dictate that

games have to withdraw to the Zebedee app. Bitcoin miner if they want to, can withdraw to wallet as Satoshi or they can withdraw to something else. thing is game devs, generally tend to make the player withdraw to Zebedee and that's mainly due to fraud, right? If you have a game like Bitcoin miner that's giving you Bitcoin, the people are going to make like fake kind of devices and run scripts that are going to basically play that game all the time and try and hack all the Bitcoin. So

With the zebedee wallet, we actually do some kind of like stuff in our app to basically try to detect it is your device a real device? Is it an emulator? Is it kind of stuff? And then we also can monitor fight bot farms playing so that's why bitcoin miner is mainly choosing to kind of It only lets you withdraw to zebedee. Yeah, because it's because they don't want to have to worry about for they we tell devs you can So fountain for example, you can withdraw to your own nodes, you know, but

Cody Ellingham (49:33.954)
they have to deal with some of that stuff themselves. yeah, mean, but regulation is something that kind of, I suppose, keeps me up at night, right? I do, I'm concerned particularly about the EU. The EU, think, you know, it's just gonna hurt the UI UX for everybody. And, you know, as a company and game companies were the companies, right? They have to comply, right? You know, I'm sure there's always going to be a place on the internet where

people play Bitcoin games with like their own nodes and it's not regulated and it's kind of how it should be. But that's not going to like onboard everybody onto, you know, the vast majority of people are going to use like regulated apps, unfortunately. Maybe in the future that changes as people become more tech literate and educated as somebody with somewhat libertarian leanings, I suppose. I'd like to kind of see that, I suppose, you know, when we were

Maybe young playing quake we'd all like, we'd mod it and stuff and run our own servers and learn about LAN and stuff. Or Zebedee, our kind of USP is really for like real gaming companies, the ones you've all heard about, the household names, how can we work with them to get into use Bitcoin? We need to comply with all.

the regulations. Yeah, no, I I fully understand. mean, it's a business decision and it's sort of this ongoing thing because it's not only you guys. mean, even just exchanges and other, you know, anyone who interfaces with the public and any kind of fiat connection, whether it's just even having a business or any of that, all of that stuff, just bumps up against the state and it's desire. I mean, as we get bigger, we're not super.

tubing now, but we are talking to certain groups that there are certain groups, particularly in the UK where I'm based, who are, you know, they're kind of lobbyist groups, let's say, who are trying to push back against the regulations, things like this. So we are definitely talking with them because regulation hurts us as well, right? You know, it's just like... hurts everybody, man. Regulation hurts any business, right? So we want to get that as small as possible. But, you know, it's quite a big...

Cody Ellingham (51:53.006)
I actually hope that I think a lot of the regulation on Bitcoin is due to because its association with like, you know drugs and money laundering, but I think as Zebedee and other companies they have more like, you know non-criminal Use cases of Bitcoin just like playing games. I think that would probably help you know, so then at some point a politician can see or watching most of Bitcoin Traffic is actually with you know podcasting 2.0 with apps like why are we?

requiring everybody do KYC to get like a dollar. No, we should scrap that, you know, but I think it's because they only see Bitcoin as a negative use case. So I think we have to increase the positive use case, even if at the moment that requires regulation. think it'll improve the image of Bitcoin in the eyes of regulators and hopefully they can roll back on some of that in the future. Yeah. And I mean, potentially we might also see, you know, the United States sort of pulling ahead from what the EU

and the rest of the world is doing. I mean, just look at the AI stuff. It's like, can't, I saw a tweet saying something around how if the steam engine was invented today, it wouldn't be legal in the EU. Because it was from overseas and it was considered bad for the environment and it had this perverse effect on existing businesses. And it's such a stupid thing. And so I wonder whether, with everything politically happening,

whether the United States pulls ahead and there's this renaissance of Bitcoin and stuff coming out of the US that the rest of the world plays catch up with to try and get on that wave. I countries look around and they look at other countries to see what other countries are doing and they emulate it. And the EU is not doing well, you know, obviously. I mean, the EU is a top down organization. It's kind of sad because the EU is, you've got like some of the

you know the most cultured, smartest countries in the world all closely linked together they all apparently have free trade with each other but they just shoot themselves in the foot in my opinion right? I mean I think a lot of it they do it because they think they're doing good they want to protect consumers, want to workers rights but a lot of these things you know like the road to hell is paved with good intentions

Cody Ellingham (54:15.15)
Yeah, but the thing is it's so hard to change anything in the EU because of their structure, right? Like in the UK, we've made some bad decisions and we're making I think we're making some bad decisions now, but I'm kind of assured that next election Well, I see that's a whole separate thing, but we can get rid of everybody and get a new bunch in obviously, I think there's a lot of kind of like Quangos and stuff, which regardless of the government just can't be changed for us a whole different thing but with the EU it's even harder to change anything like if you're

member of the EU Parliament like what you can basically vote for or against things that have already been decided from the top you can't really introduce new bills as far as I understand it so I think the EE has got a bit of a challenge going forward yeah and and I mean also thinking about some of the incredible game studios out of places like Poland the Czech Republic as well that you know a lot of these yeah these countries and France Ubisoft is France yeah

I mean, so there's a lot of talent there and a lot of creative talent and it would be awesome to see what that, you know, it could look like if it was able to embrace. I think that's going to get worse because I think the reason that it kind of maybe took off, I think once you regulate some certain industries, a lot of the brain power goes to industries which aren't as regulated. So kind of I think like, you know, some of the gaming industries, especially tech, wasn't as regulated. So a lot of the energy kind of went there. But the EU is bringing

IT regulation in next year. I think in a way it's like if you want to start, mean, Zebedee, right? We're a US company, you know, but the CEO and myself are from the UK. But when you make a company, you look around the world, like which countries should we establish ourselves in? people are going to, should we do the EU? I mean, it's easy and easy to travel to different countries. So I'm not sure if you want to make a company, necessarily what the EU would

bring to you. You why not? mean, you, you know, you've people vote with their feet and they choose countries which are friendly. It's easier with the internet to work in different countries. So, yeah, I'm not sure. Yeah, it's interesting. And I mean, I do look forward to the future of, of, you know, this hopefully evolving into a positive space where we can use Bitcoin seamlessly through our various apps and, you know, as intended and

Cody Ellingham (56:40.046)
I did want to ask you as well, just sorry, a technical question, but I mean, you obviously got a big focus on lightning, but is a cash and that on your guys radar at the moment as something that could be possible for that? No, but I think that just goes to the regulation, right? Oh, really? It's I mean, it's basically completely private, Yes. So I mean, as Zabadi, like so as Zabadi, like if the amounts are small,

We don't have to KYC anybody that might change in the EU, you know But we do have to under US law. We do have to comply with them Am l like anti money laundering. We have to see if the suspicious things going on. have to report them. I don't think any US company or any cup let's say any company and like, you know under the jurisdiction of America, is pretty all countries, right? I'll separate

Russia or something which let's not go there. I see I don't think they could touch e-cash. really? I think this is actually quite interesting because I'm not sure if you know light spark I've heard the name light spark. Yeah, but they're of like such a very big lightning company actually Because I'm do you remember when Facebook we're making their coin Libra Libra. Yes, so the guy behind that David Marcus I didn't work but he had he left and he's made

Lights back, which is a lightning Bitcoin company payments. I think I believe they power coinbase is lightning They're very very big but they just announced a product called spark, which is what's known as a state chain, which is actually It's one of my favorite Bitcoin layer to tech it's made by Ruben Thompson who came up with it and there's mercury Layer in the UK came up with it first. It's a really scalable kind of private. It's basically

The best way to describe it is it's like a digital open dime. You know, an open dime you can like hand out kind of basically private keys. It's like that, but a digital version. You can completely off chain privately swap UTXOs. So in a way it's a bit of e-cash. It kind of like private, virtually free transfers of Bitcoin. But Lightspark have made a wallet there and then it makes you think because it's private.

Cody Ellingham (59:07.186)
I suspect they to take all the privacy out of it in order to use it as a US company. I think that's kind of what people have to do with eCash. But if you take all the privacy out of eCash, it's just a database. It's not eCash anymore. mean, eCash, I'm interested to see which market it takes off at, but I don't see it taking off in like first world country, general business markets. But hey, maybe it's not for that, right? know, like, I don't think everything on Bitcoin.

should be made for like the regulated market. is an open source tech and people should make things for things they think are useful. But yeah, I don't see how Zerbidi could use it because we'd have to take all the privacy out of it. And then we might as well just use our database, which is kind what we do at Zerbidi for a lot of transactions anyway, right? If you're a Zerbidi user sending 10 sats to another Zerbidi user with

We're not going to go over the lightning network for that because you would be our node paying itself, right? So we just do it. Yeah. In a database. But yeah, that's kind of my view on the cash. Personally, I like it as a tech. kind of, you know, I'm very much lazy. Fair. Like, you know, let's try everything. Let's try it out and see how it is. You know, seems seems interesting. Seems quite cool. But yeah, it's a business. Unfortunately, if it's completely private sending money around, it's just going to be impossible.

There's something that they just don't like us having privacy, man. I don't know what it is about them. Yeah. I mean, I know why the official reason is because I have to do training every year as part of, you know, it's like a requirement to have our basic licenses. But it's basically it's because money can be used to fund terrorism, know, rogue states, this type of stuff. So that's why they want to monitor it so they can make sure, you know, whatever.

That's the official reason. Personally, I think it's more complicated. I think it probably does more harm than good with people's details being leaked. Right. And, you know, and then those people being attacked by scammers because they've got that address and their names. I think that's the I think it has a negative effect. But yeah, unfortunately, you know, no, that I mean, that would be an episode for another day. I think our criticisms of that system and how and what it's designed for. But

Cody Ellingham (01:01:32.802)
My final thing for you then Chris really is what's next for you and I guess what you're excited about working on at the moment in terms of Zebedee's roadmap and current lineup. Yes, Zebedee I'm actually I'm a co-founder but I'm actually I'm actually a working code monkey so I'm programming every day and actually I'm at the R &D department at Zebedee for lack of a better term so I get to get to do a lot of cool fun stuff so I'll come up with some like fun idea.

make a prototype and if it kind of makes sense then we'll like ship it as a proper product. And what I'm working on now is what I'm quite excited about. So I've always wanted to put Bitcoin into games. I just have a fascination of doing it. So I'm actually what I'm doing at the moment is I'm actually coming up with kind of like a free gaming kit or pack for conferences and meetups and Bitcoin bars to use. So normally when I go to conferences

often I'll set up games at the conference for people to play. So I've made some Mario Kart style games at Zerbidi where people get on a laptop and they just play other people at the conferences and they can kind of like Bitcoin by playing Mario Kart style game. But I've always had to be there to kind of make it work. I'm going to make it so those games can be downloaded and funded by whatever institution wants to do it. But another thing I noticed is that

Obviously, so people enjoy my Zebedee cart, it's called, but it's a Mario Kart clone. It's not as good as Mario Kart. I mean, because obviously it can't be because of the resources. So recently I've been working on a couple of pieces of tech which let you put Bitcoin into any existing game without having to change the game. So I have one piece which is called Bitcoin Game Genie. I'll show if you remember the Game Genie. for the Nintendo.

Yeah, yeah, so it's like a thing you put the cartridge in and it would enhance it right? Yeah, you could like do cheat so I'm I'm making some tech which uses AI at the moment where you can just Download a game. So in the example I show I downloaded Grand Theft Auto by city and then you run this piece of software and this software is kind of it's using AI to like watch you play the game and then it'll give you Bitcoin accordingly so in the game, you know, if you like, I don't know you

Cody Ellingham (01:03:58.104)
punch somebody on the street and steal that money and get a hundred bucks. This AI is seeing that and it's going, okay, let's get, let's assign him a hundred sats. So I'm making this piece of software that will let basically you could be at like a Bitcoin bar or cafe, a conference, choose any game, run the software and kind of let people earn sats for it. Yeah. Yes. That's kind of what I'm working on at the moment. Yeah. That's kind of cool. You know, I think I've seen some of your, your, Zibbidi Cart. I think I had it at Prague.

And yes, also product actually great a big shout out to Nathan day and Sam day Yeah, so this is kind of great father and son Bitcoin kind of team where so Nathan day actually does BTC maps. Oh, yeah I'm it Nathan. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's a cool guy But with his son is actually like a I think he's like a Bitcoin gaming CEO He kind of makes games with by himself and also with his dad. They have like a Pac-Man game where you earn Bitcoin

But they very kindly, because I can't attend a lot of conferences because I'm a family man at the time. So they actually said, know, give us some laptops and we'll just run the games for you. So they very kindly ran the Zepdykart games for me at Prague and I think at Madeira as well, maybe. Yeah. And that was awesome. Yeah. And yeah, it sort of seemed to gave a bit of life.

that area where they had the games, you know, people sort of watching. good to hear. But look man, I think that's awesome to hear what you're working on, what Zebedee's doing. If people want to follow you, if they want to learn more about Zebedee and what's available, where can they go? just Mandleduck at Twitter or Zebedee at Twitter. So Mandleduck, yeah, I'm sure you can put it in the show notes, but yeah, that's me. Yeah. And yeah, that's probably the best place.

Awesome. All right, Chris, I really appreciate your time and for joining me today. That's great chatting. Thanks for having me. Thank you for listening. I am Cody Ellingham and that was the Transformation of Value. If you would like to support this show, please consider making a donation either through my website or by directly tipping to the show's Bitcoin wallet or just pass this episode on to a friend who you think may enjoy it. And you can always email me at hello at the transformation of value dot com.

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